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volt
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Subject:    PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:36 pm Reply with quote

That's a tough one, but I am betting on the third bullet. I think HC acts before canceller. I think the third bullet is a "requirement" for the 4th bullet, and therefore says the canceller can't work before HC.

Hopefully Woelf chimes in soon because I am curious what he says. =)
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Subject:    PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:28 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
Big question here that could affect some results in Tournament #2:

You can see the situation below: Vengeance has canceller Lenoir aboard, and the French want to cancel Captain Blackheart aboard the Roanoke as soon as the AP's turn begins. However, the AP's still have their Hidden Cove. Basically, which happens first, or in other words which part of this section is most relevant?

The Pirate Code wrote:
Timing
-If two or more conflicting abilities or effects seem to occur at the same time, the player whose turn it is may choose the order in which they are applied unless specifically stated otherwise in the ability text or in this document.
-If an action or ability refers to a specific point in time (“beginning of your turn”, “before X”, “immediately after X”, etc.) it must be used at that time or it cannot be applied until the next time that situation occurs.
-If an ability or action does not specifically state that it applies at the beginning of a turn, it cannot be applied until after all “beginning of turn” abilities, actions, or other effects have been applied.
-If an action or ability does not refer to a specific point in time it may be applied when desired, provided that any and all other requirements (a specified range, a clear line of fire, physical contact, etc.) are met.


I thought that the third part made it clear that HC overrides the canceller, but the final part is confusing because the canceller ability says "once per turn" without specifying when. (and if the first part applies, the AP's would choose HC to apply first, at which time Lenoir wouldn't even be in range)

The bullet points apply essentially in the order they're listed, and the fourth is just the catch-all for anything that doesn't fall under one of the others.


In this case, the third point takes priority, so Hidden Cove applies first because it's a beginning of turn effect.
Once that's resolved, you can start using abilities that lack a specific timing, like Lenoir.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:32 pm Reply with quote

Alright thanks again for your help with this stuff. Now the game can continue heh - luckily the rules question came up near the end of the session anyway, so there wasn't much trouble in delaying the game.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:24 pm Reply with quote

A couple questions.

Does Captain Nemo's ability override crew protectors. I looked at the code and it doesn't specify one way or another.



If Chariot of the Gods was used to put Papa Doc on a sea monster, would the crew Doc potentially possesses be able to use their abilities on that Sea Monster?
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Subject:    PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:54 pm Reply with quote

xerecs wrote:
Does Captain Nemo's ability override crew protectors. I looked at the code and it doesn't specify one way or another.
Crew protectors only prevent eliminations.

Nemo (or similar) captures crew instead of eliminating them, so the protectors have nothing to prevent.



ADDED: This is covered under the entry for the gold-based capture ability and applies the same for both, but unfortunately that one ended up on a separate page from Nemo's in the latest version of the PC, so it's easy to miss.
The Pirate Code wrote:
Capture ability (Gold)
“If this ship wins a boarding party, she may capture the crew with the highest point cost instead of eliminating it. This captured crew becomes cargo worth its point cost in gold when unloaded at your home island.”

-Abilities that prevent elimination or return crew to play after elimination will not protect crew from being captured by this ability, because it does not eliminate the crew.




Quote:
If Chariot of the Gods was used to put Papa Doc on a sea monster, would the crew Doc potentially possesses be able to use their abilities on that Sea Monster?
Papa Doc would be useless on his chariot.

The Pirate Code wrote:
Chariot of the Gods
-This ability allows only one crewmember to be assigned to a sea monster. You cannot assign an additional crew to this sea monster even if it could link with the first crew and/or would take up no space.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:37 pm Reply with quote

The code had that entry under the Capture (gold) section, so I figured that it only applied to that specific capture ability, and not to Nemo's. This came up in the most recent session of the campaign, so thanks for clearing it up.


Awe darn...... Sad I had this crazy idea to put Doc on a Sea Monster like Slarg Gubbit and use him to possess crew from under the water. Too bad. I suppose I could put him on a Sub though....
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Subject: +1 gold   PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:58 am Reply with quote

If a ship has the ability, "One of this ship's treasures is worth +1 gold when she docks at your home island." Does it get that +1 every time it goes out and returns with treasure on board?
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Subject: Re: +1 gold   PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:11 am Reply with quote

etcmn wrote:
If a ship has the ability, "One of this ship's treasures is worth +1 gold when she docks at your home island." Does it get that +1 every time it goes out and returns with treasure on board?


Yes. Every time that ship unloads treasure, one of her coins is worth +1 gold. You can stack this ability with the +2 gold ability to get a net result of +3 gold to one coin.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:54 pm Reply with quote

xerecs wrote:
Awe darn...... Sad I had this crazy idea to put Doc on a Sea Monster like Slarg Gubbit and use him to possess crew from under the water. Too bad. I suppose I could put him on a Sub though....
Actually, the convention pack for MI, the one with Locker and Edward Low had that ability. They're linked, too.

I had a couple of questions myself:
- Can Chariot of the Gods be used to assign crew to a sea dragon or octopus/kraken? And if Chariot of the Gods is discovered by an opponent that is not using any sea creatures, will its effect be applied to your sea creature instead?
- Does a Shipwright's repair ability extend to cover sea creature segments and turtle ship panels?
- Can Lord Mycron give up two actions to another ship if he is on board with an SAT or extra action crew that rolls the required number to get an extra action?
- Do world-hater and faction-hater bonuses stack? As in, could I put Chang Pao on Grand Mountain to get +2 to cannon rolls against English ships?
- In what order does a ramming/shooting/boarding action take place when a ship with a Captain rams another ship? EDIT: never mind, this was answered above.
- Can the effects of Chum Maker and Skuld Blood-Axe stack?


Last edited by godmason on Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:23 am Reply with quote

godmason wrote:

I had a couple of questions myself:
- Can Chariot of the Gods be used to assign crew to a sea dragon or octopus/kraken? And if Chariot of the Gods is discovered by an opponent that is not using any sea creatures, will its effect be applied to your sea creature instead?
- Does a Shipwright's repair ability extend to cover sea creature segments and turtle ship panels?
- Can Lord Mycron give up two actions to another ship if he is on board with an SAT or extra action crew that rolls the required number to get an extra action?
- Do world-hater and faction-hater bonuses stack? As in, could I put Chang Pao on Grand Mountain to get +2 to cannon rolls against English ships?
- In what order does a ramming/shooting/boarding action take place when a ship with a Captain rams another ship?
- Can the effects of Chum Maker and Skuld Blood-Axe stack?



In regards to your cannon bonus question, yes. The abilities have slightly different triggers, which allows them to stack.

I don't think a shipwright can repair a lost turtle shell, since their abilities apply to masts. I could be wrong on that though.

I'm not as sure about some of your other questions. I think that Chariot of the Gods applies to Sea Monsters and not Sea Creatures which a Sea Dragon, Kraken/Octopus fall under.

The ship Mycron is on must give up it's action COMPLETLY, it cannot be given an action in anyway whatsoever, so using an SAT/EA ability would not apply to the ship he's on, thus denying the possibility of two actions from him in the same turn. Again, I'm not sure about this and could be wrong.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:00 am Reply with quote

xerecs wrote:
In regards to your cannon bonus question, yes. The abilities have slightly different triggers, which allows them to stack.

I don't think a shipwright can repair a lost turtle shell, since their abilities apply to masts. I could be wrong on that though.

I'm not as sure about some of your other questions. I think that Chariot of the Gods applies to Sea Monsters and not Sea Creatures which a Sea Dragon, Kraken/Octopus fall under.

The ship Mycron is on must give up it's action COMPLETLY, it cannot be given an action in anyway whatsoever, so using an SAT/EA ability would not apply to the ship he's on, thus denying the possibility of two actions from him in the same turn. Again, I'm not sure about this and could be wrong.
Chariot of the Gods was DJC content, it was released before other sea creatures existed, so it wouldn't be able to make that distinction. I think we should wait for woelf to weigh in, and I hope he says it can be used... it would make Sea Dragons potentially worth using.

It sounds like Mycron allows giving up an action in lieu of taking an action itself. Let's look at an SAT crew— Admiral Robert Blake should work fine. Note that it says to roll before an action is taken; the die roll does not count as an action. Thus, the ship he's on does not give up the pre-action die roll.

Mycron's text allows the forfeit of an action. One interpretation could be that he is allowed to give up an action, one action, per turn. Another, the one I'm hoping woelf supports, is that it allows the forfeit of any individual action, potentially plural, as actions are separate. The wording here is what's allowing me to be tricky with my interpretation of the card's ability: it states that actions can be give up, not the ship's turn. The turn for that ship isn't necessarily transferred to another ship, it's the action that is being transferred.

Let's wait for woelf to reply. I'm confident he will support the one action interpretation, but I've got my fingers crossed that I can play dirty with this combination of abilities.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:30 am Reply with quote

godmason wrote:
I had a couple of questions myself:
- Can Chariot of the Gods be used to assign crew to a sea dragon or octopus/kraken? And if Chariot of the Gods is discovered by an opponent that is not using any sea creatures, will its effect be applied to your sea creature instead?
Chariot of the Gods is specific to Sea Monsters, so it cannot be used by other creatures. (It might be more interesting if it could, but it can't.)

It goes to the nearest sea monster, and doesn't care who controls it. If you and an opponent both had a sea monster and theirs was closer, that's where the Chariot goes.


Quote:
- Does a Shipwright's repair ability extend to cover sea creature segments and turtle ship panels?
Shipwrights only change where repair actions can be given, but otherwise grant no special abilities. Sea creatures can't repair (aside from the Eternal exception), and repair actions only work on masts, not panels or other removable pieces like outriggers.

Quote:
- Can Lord Mycron give up two actions to another ship if he is on board with an SAT or extra action crew that rolls the required number to get an extra action?
He cannot be given any actions on the turn he gives his action away. This includes free actions like the crew transfer while docked at an island.

If his ship is given any actions at all, regardless of the source or how many it might be able to stack up, it has been given an action and is no longer eligible to give any away.

It would have to specifically say "one action" or "each action" or something along those lines to allow it to give away more than one action and/or give away an action while still doing something else.

Quote:
- Do world-hater and faction-hater bonuses stack? As in, could I put Chang Pao on Grand Mountain to get +2 to cannon rolls against English ships?
Chang Pao works against non-JR while Grand Mountain works against the English. Those are different triggers, so they can be combined for a +2 against the English and +1 against anyone else besides the JR.

Quote:
- In what order does a ramming/shooting/boarding action take place when a ship with a Captain rams another ship? EDIT: never mind, this was answered above.
Page 62 of the Pirate Code has a list that covers the precise timing in more detail than you probably even thought you'd need.

Quote:
- Can the effects of Chum Maker and Skuld Blood-Axe stack?
The boarding abilities are the same, so the no-stacking rule applies and only one can be used.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:27 pm Reply with quote

Much appreciated. I'm not the best with the rules, but I still like to try interpreting them creatively without cheating. That said, given how informal some of my game nights are, I may in fact break the Chariot rules for the sake of using a Sea Dragon one day.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:54 am Reply with quote

Nothing wrong with "breaking" or altering the rules so long as everyone is on board. I'd accept someone putting a chariot on a sea dragon if only because it'd be cool.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:27 pm Reply with quote

agiantpie wrote:
Nothing wrong with "breaking" or altering the rules so long as everyone is on board. I'd accept someone putting a chariot on a sea dragon if only because it'd be cool.
And because you'll probably never see me use a sea dragon otherwise. Then again, most people I play with are casual players who borrow from my large collection... maybe Angelica and Shal-Bala are worth using after all.
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