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woelf
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:36 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
Here's a fun one:

Renard à Ailes (from RtSS) + Lenoir, Vicomtesse Angelique de Richelieu

Ability: Junk. Once per turn as part of a move action, this ship can randomly take one treasure from any ship up to S away from her.

~~~~~

The question is, can these abilities be combined on the same turn with the Renard taking one coin while within S just before her final move segment, followed by Angelique's heist after touching the enemy ship?
Sure. They're different abilities, so there's no problem with using both. You could even use the ship's ability while touching the other ship because you are "within S" of it.


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Edit: Another question. Due to the MKL wording, I have to use Eileen Brigid O'Brien on the Celtic Fury if I use Davy Jones to copy the Treasure Ship keyword, correct?
Treasure Ship's restriction about the linked crew applies only at the beginning of the game, so by the time you can copy the ability, it doesn't matter.

Admiral Zheng He and The Headhunter restrict themselves to their own ships, but that has no direct bearing on how Treasure Ship works.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:15 pm Reply with quote

woelf wrote:
Quote:
Edit: Another question. Due to the MKL wording, I have to use Eileen Brigid O'Brien on the Celtic Fury if I use Davy Jones to copy the Treasure Ship keyword, correct?
Treasure Ship's restriction about the linked crew applies only at the beginning of the game, so by the time you can copy the ability, it doesn't matter.

Admiral Zheng He and The Headhunter restrict themselves to their own ships, but that has no direct bearing on how Treasure Ship works.


That's great, but your new PC ruling is not! Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Treasure Ship
-Crew on this ship always cost their full value, so abilities that reduce the costs of other crew have no effect.


I know people like Princess Arii Auraa can't work with Treasure Ship, but I figured Sir Edmund would since his ability is different and simply lowers the point costs, rather than automatically dropping them to 0. With Black Mark the Celtic Fury has 26 points of crew, with Edmund it'd be 23 (28 ). So close to making the fleet work!

If I hadn't asked so many questions, maybe the Pirate Code update wouldn't be done and my fleet would be "legal". Razz

Just for added confusion, here's a situation. The Celtic Fury starts the game S away from the HI. Let's say I have HMS Rye docked with the Cursed captain aboard. On the first turn, the Rye touches the CF and the CF explores to take the captain, with the Rye cancelling the Black Mark keyword to allow the points to fit. Then the Rye follows right behind the CF (rather convenient I must say, she'd be almost immune from harm at the stern of a 10 master) and continues to cancel the Black Mark keyword to make the CF's crew setup legal (and since cancelling lasts the full turn the CF could go out of S range of the Rye during the turn while they're both moving). Does this work, or does cancelling Black Mark revert the ship back to its original nationality and force the removal of a crew?
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:52 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
woelf wrote:
Quote:
Edit: Another question. Due to the MKL wording, I have to use Eileen Brigid O'Brien on the Celtic Fury if I use Davy Jones to copy the Treasure Ship keyword, correct?
Treasure Ship's restriction about the linked crew applies only at the beginning of the game, so by the time you can copy the ability, it doesn't matter.

Admiral Zheng He and The Headhunter restrict themselves to their own ships, but that has no direct bearing on how Treasure Ship works.


That's great, but your new PC ruling is not! Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Treasure Ship
-Crew on this ship always cost their full value, so abilities that reduce the costs of other crew have no effect.


I know people like Princess Arii Auraa can't work with Treasure Ship, but I figured Sir Edmund would since his ability is different and simply lowers the point costs, rather than automatically dropping them to 0. With Black Mark the Celtic Fury has 26 points of crew, with Edmund it'd be 23 (28 ). So close to making the fleet work!

If I hadn't asked so many questions, maybe the Pirate Code update wouldn't be done and my fleet would be "legal". Razz
That's not exactly a "new" ruling. The keyword has always had that restriction, it just wasn't worded as explicitly as it could have been. Even in the the MKL it says the crew can't have their point costs reduced, which is the same as saying they cost their full point values.

The 0-cost reducers like the Princess were the primary reason for that restriction, but there are more than enough 1-point crew out there that the -1 reducers like Edmund can cause almost the exact same problems on a Treasure Ship, so the restriction applies to everything.

Quote:
Just for added confusion, here's a situation. The Celtic Fury starts the game S away from the HI. Let's say I have HMS Rye docked with the Cursed captain aboard. On the first turn, the Rye touches the CF and the CF explores to take the captain, with the Rye cancelling the Black Mark keyword to allow the points to fit. Then the Rye follows right behind the CF (rather convenient I must say, she'd be almost immune from harm at the stern of a 10 master) and continues to cancel the Black Mark keyword to make the CF's crew setup legal (and since cancelling lasts the full turn the CF could go out of S range of the Rye during the turn while they're both moving). Does this work, or does cancelling Black Mark revert the ship back to its original nationality and force the removal of a crew?
This follows the same precedent as copying a point reducer.

There's a moment at the beginning of each turn where you have to resolve illegal situations, before you can re-apply (or in this case re-disable) whatever ability might have otherwise allowed it.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:09 pm Reply with quote

woelf wrote:
That's not exactly a "new" ruling. The keyword has always had that restriction, it just wasn't worded as explicitly as it could have been. Even in the the MKL it says the crew can't have their point costs reduced, which is the same as saying they cost their full point values.

The 0-cost reducers like the Princess were the primary reason for that restriction, but there are more than enough 1-point crew out there that the -1 reducers like Edmund can cause almost the exact same problems on a Treasure Ship, so the restriction applies to everything.


I figured as much, hence the sarcastic emoji. I think part of the reason I don't like it is because there aren't that many opportunities to use crew like Edmund in the first place, and this just limits them even more. Also I've barely used Black Mark in actual games so I'm not as familiar with how it functions in regards to other abilities.

(I can't really imagine trying to teach Black Mark and all its interactions with other abilities to new players - they would look at me like I was crazy with such a maze of rules to get through)
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:54 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
Also I've barely used Black Mark in actual games so I'm not as familiar with how it functions in regards to other abilities.

(I can't really imagine trying to teach Black Mark and all its interactions with other abilities to new players - they would look at me like I was crazy with such a maze of rules to get through)
I can't recall ever finding much use for it either, other than the rare time using it just to say I did.

Like so many other things WK did with the game, the concept sounds a lot more interesting than it actually is in practice. I could see it maybe being valuable if you have a relatively small collection, but when you've got the vast majority of the game's run available there are very, very few cases where you can't put together the same exact (or at least comparable) combination of crew abilities and ship abilities/stats without even looking at Black Mark.

If BM had been paired up with more useful abilities, or (better yet) on some crew all by itself, it would have been a lot more flexible and usable in general. As it stands, Snape is really the only Black Mark crew that's even worth considering for the ability. Everyone else with it comes with a really expensive ability that eats up so much point cap space that you can't really string together any really fun combos.


That being said, a wider range of similar abilities that allowed for shifting nationalities could be cool if implemented well. A Spanish crew that could turn full Pirate, an English crew that can join up with the Americans, etc....
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:22 pm Reply with quote

At first I thought you were talking about Sir Edmund and crew like him, in which case I don't use them very much either. Of course, Edmund is absolutely perfect for the Divine Dragon + Davy Jones, Edmund, captain, helmsman. (+ optional oarsman) Especially without the Flying Dutchman at the time, that was my Cursed flagship setup for many games, some of which were extremely memorable because of it.

woelf wrote:
a7xfanben wrote:
Also I've barely used Black Mark in actual games so I'm not as familiar with how it functions in regards to other abilities.

(I can't really imagine trying to teach Black Mark and all its interactions with other abilities to new players - they would look at me like I was crazy with such a maze of rules to get through)
I can't recall ever finding much use for it either, other than the rare time using it just to say I did.

Like so many other things WK did with the game, the concept sounds a lot more interesting than it actually is in practice. I could see it maybe being valuable if you have a relatively small collection, but when you've got the vast majority of the game's run available there are very, very few cases where you can't put together the same exact (or at least comparable) combination of crew abilities and ship abilities/stats without even looking at Black Mark.

If BM had been paired up with more useful abilities, or (better yet) on some crew all by itself, it would have been a lot more flexible and usable in general. As it stands, Snape is really the only Black Mark crew that's even worth considering for the ability. Everyone else with it comes with a really expensive ability that eats up so much point cap space that you can't really string together any really fun combos.


I think many combos can be fun without being super-practical, which partly comes from our different play styles and game sizes. I had to consult with you about this Cristal setup, but it ended up working quite well. I think I'll try doing something with the Inquisitor on the Fortaleza, which should be interesting. Like I mentioned in the crew arrangements thread, Hampstead works well on the Shui Xian like Snape works well on the Celtic Fury. You could copy the Treasure Ship keyword there as well to free up space for Hampstead's ability and turn the SX into a super hybrid. That said, I will admit that Desailly and Blackheart have abilities that don't complement well with much of anything; even Blackheart on the Zeus with Cursed crew doesn't sound appealing due to his Emperor version and so many Pirate crew that can do whatever the Cursed could offer, and you could just use Crimson Angel instead. (maybe Desailly on the La Chandois for the protection, but then you don't even need Black Mark...)

Quote:
That being said, a wider range of similar abilities that allowed for shifting nationalities could be cool if implemented well. A Spanish crew that could turn full Pirate, an English crew that can join up with the Americans, etc....


That sounds interesting but complicated. Given how much confusion there is over Black Mark and the Mercenary/Ex-Patriot keywords (not the same problem but similar), it would definitely have to be implemented in a much better way. It does make me love how well this game works with house rules though.

PS: Have you ever played against someone who accused you of cheating because they couldn't believe how good something was? I haven't had it but I'm keeping my Treasure Card on hand in case someone needs to see that it's official and not fake, etc. Laughing
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:17 am Reply with quote

So you can use DJC DJ to copy the Treasure ship keyword, even if you didn't have him on a ten?
If you found a way to get him onto one of the non Treasure Ship tens, what would the effects be of copy Treasure Ship with him on that ten?
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:54 am Reply with quote

xerecs wrote:
So you can use DJC DJ to copy the Treasure ship keyword, even if you didn't have him on a ten?
If you found a way to get him onto one of the non Treasure Ship tens, what would the effects be of copy Treasure Ship with him on that ten?
Treasure Ship doesn't strike me as the most useful ability for a ship to copy with DJ.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:13 am Reply with quote

xerecs wrote:
So you can use DJC DJ to copy the Treasure ship keyword, even if you didn't have him on a ten?
If you found a way to get him onto one of the non Treasure Ship tens, what would the effects be of copy Treasure Ship with him on that ten?


Yes. You just get the Treasure Ship keyword, same as copying any other ability. I used it in that fleet to steal from HI's, but you could use it to run gold normally with lots of crew on board (just like you might with the Baochuan), or steal from enemy ships, etc.

What I find absolutely hilarious about this whole thing is how easy it is to counter. Literally the one point Stinkpot Shot (which due to a database error has recovered its former position of glory as one of the most underrated game pieces ever) hitting will disable DJ, knock out the keyword, and potentially force a catastrophic mass exodus off the ship if she's way overloaded. LOL (not to mention standard cancellers; maybe the worst would actually be Periscope since you can just randomly find it and flip it for no cost)

godmason wrote:
Treasure Ship doesn't strike me as the most useful ability for a ship to copy with DJ.


Perhaps not, but 10 masters could really take advantage of it since they have so much cargo in the first place. The Delusion could use it to be more effective, though it'd be nice to have HMS Lucy's Luck and/or a longship in play as well. It's a situational usage of DJ that works for very large and costly ships that you want to turn into hybrids, possibly for gimmicky purposes. Laughing After all, this whole discussion is happening because of my "10 mast nonsense" fleet.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:20 am Reply with quote

Is it possible to copy other ships' keywords with DJ? I thought that was illegal, though I may be remembering wrong.

I'm now imagining putting putting DJ aboard HMS Endeavour using Sir Meyer Hampstead and copying that Longship keyword... enough firepower to take down two ten masters in one turn. Not sure that's legal, though. Is there any way to finagle Hermionie Gold onto the ship too?
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:31 am Reply with quote

godmason wrote:
Is it possible to copy other ships' keywords with DJ? I thought that was illegal, though I may be remembering wrong.

I'm now imagining putting putting DJ aboard HMS Endeavour using Sir Meyer Hampstead and copying that Longship keyword... enough firepower to take down two ten masters in one turn. Not sure that's legal, though. Is there any way to finagle Hermionie Gold onto the ship too?


The Pirate Code (FAQ/Errata)

The Pirate Code wrote:
Copy Ability (continued)
-Keywords may be copied like any other ability, however, some aspects of that keyword may not function properly:
--If part of a keyword refers to a specific ship type, such as catamaran or submarine, that part can be used only by ships of that ship type. Copying a keyword does not change a ship’s type.
--If part of a keyword refers to a specific component, such as turtle shell panels or blades, that part of the keyword can be used only by ships with that component. Any remaining portions of the keyword that do not refer to specific components may still be used, if applicable.
--If part of a keyword refers to ships in general, such as “this ship” or “a ship with this keyword”, it may be used regardless of a ship’s type.


With that setup, you're better off skipping Hampstead to use Brother Virgil to save two points. That would prevent the ship from becoming Cursed, thereby allowing Hermione to come aboard if you added Robinson. At that point I would rather have her RotF version to get the essential abilities, and then have Lord Mycron and Thomas Gunn on other ships to make sure you don't miss too much. Shocked Twisted Evil
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:43 am Reply with quote

Excellent point, plus Hampstead's secondary ability is an unnecessary extra cost. I think I'd rather insert Cavendish than Robinson to duck under the point limit to avoid the debuff.

I suspect that there are multiple good ways to configure this idea. Either way, it's such an extreme amount of firepower that it's a potential game ruiner... never mind the possibility of throwing a Flotilla behind the ship, for extra frustration... which would also allow the copying of the Extended Range keyword, a whole separate nightmare for anyone facing this combo.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:53 am Reply with quote

godmason wrote:
Excellent point, plus Hampstead's secondary ability is an unnecessary extra cost. I think I'd rather insert Cavendish than Robinson to duck under the point limit to avoid the debuff.


You wouldn't be able to add Cavendish unless you DID use Black Mark; no need to double up on Virgil's ability. It works perfectly at 19 points with RotF HGold, Virgil, and Davy Jones. That even allows for 2 more points in the last cargo space.

Quote:
I suspect that there are multiple good ways to configure this idea. Either way, it's such an extreme amount of firepower that it's a potential game ruiner... never mind the possibility of throwing a Flotilla behind the ship, for extra frustration... which would also allow the copying of the Extended Range keyword, a whole separate nightmare for anyone facing this combo.


True, although speed, cancellers, and ships like the Acorazado are still good counters.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:59 am Reply with quote

Here I go getting confused again.

One other weakness is ships that couldn't be hit by L cannons... would that apply to L+L range cannons, or is that a no on a technicality?
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:21 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
True, although speed, cancellers, and ships like the Acorazado are still good counters.
Another great counter is spacing out your ships so it's physically impossible for Endeavour to hit more than one or two with a single shoot action. Then all of those points dumped into copying Longship will be completely wasted.

Although, by far the funniest would be to simply sail away with your entire fleet of faster ships so the Endeavour never actually gets to take a shot at all.
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