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notalwaysyou
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:47 am Reply with quote

xerecs wrote:
I don't think a point reducer is legal on a treasure ship. I think that was done to avoid getting a boat ton of oarsmen or one point crew for SAC builds.


A citation of where you see that or why think that would be nice because I don't know where that was ruled. It wpuld be good to know as I'm hoping to use my Baochuan sometime in the next few weeks. (Not sure i'd need to use that strategy since I think our upcoming games will all be 60, or less, points regardless, but just in case)

Though I can see the benefit of the rule, I'm not sure if they planned for large enough games where it comes into play. Certainly some oarsman would he good but at a point each, and kind of game breaking, but there's a practical limit.)
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:16 am Reply with quote

Just checked: Treasure Ship prevents the value of crew from being reduced. Guess I'll have to re-do the setup.

Zheng He (total 6)
Cavendish (total 11)
Helmsman (total 13)
Wiley/Lucky (total 17)
Pintel/Ragetti (total 21)
Cheng/Pao (total 25)
Jocard (total 2Cool
Phillippe Laffitte (just because, total 30)

Going by woelf's description of how Cheng's ability works, she ends up providing two links in total, so this still ends up providing 7 extra cargo spaces. I'll write this up some time soon.
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a7xfanben
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Subject: DJC Set Review   PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:46 am Reply with quote

With a few bumps and hiccups along the way, Episode 14 is here.

Question of the day: Did you like Davy Jones' Curse or not?

ShoutEngine

Archive.org

The following will hopefully be updated from ShoutEngine so they will be available when they get the podcast.

iTunes

TuneIn

Google Play Music

Pocket Casts

Overcast
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anchorarms
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:40 am Reply with quote

I actually really liked the fantasy aspect, I think it was wizkids trying to branch out and incorporate some sailor folklore into their game which I think is neat. I like it because it expanded the universe a lot and the creepy backstories of the Cursed are really interesting to me. Fun fact I own every single piece in DJC, even the LEs. An it mustve been a reprint set since the paint has held up well.
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Subject: Re: DJC Set Review   PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:53 am Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
With a few bumps and hiccups along the way, Episode 14 is here.

Question of the day: Did you like Davy Jones' Curse or not?

ShoutEngine

Archive.org

The following will hopefully be updated from ShoutEngine so they will be available when they get the podcast.

iTunes

TuneIn

Google Play Music

Pocket Casts

Overcast



Really nice work guys! My brother and I listened while playing a game. You could have showed more love for the Cursed tho
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Subject: Re: DJC Set Review   PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:50 am Reply with quote

wantkrakens wrote:
Really nice work guys! My brother and I listened while playing a game. You could have showed more love for the Cursed tho
Thanks! As much as I really want the Cursed to be a better faction, I don't actually see a reason why they (or any other minor faction for that matter, more on that later) should have existed at all. They could have been incorporated under the pirate faction, and they have little that makes them unique.
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Subject: Re: DJC Set Review   PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 pm Reply with quote

godmason wrote:
wantkrakens wrote:
Really nice work guys! My brother and I listened while playing a game. You could have showed more love for the Cursed tho
Thanks! As much as I really want the Cursed to be a better faction, I don't actually see a reason why they (or any other minor faction for that matter, more on that later) should have existed at all. They could have been incorporated under the pirate faction, and they have little that makes them unique.


Shocked Are you simply being facetious on purpose? The Cursed are incredibly unique! They have the most sea creatures, introduced essentially all the different types of creatures (sometimes in the same set as others by different factions of course), and have a ton of unique stuff, even if a lot of it isn't great. They have a number of very unique abilities and named crew, chief among them the copiers and are the only major faction to receive two 10 masters. Thematically and flavor-wise they are also the most unique faction.

I think the game was better off with the minor factions, though the Mercenaries and (especially) Vikings felt unnecessary. Look how many people love the Jades and Corsairs (and Cursed, if you consider them a minor faction), who also introduced two cool new historical ship types.

@wantkrakens: I go back and forth on the Cursed, but overall they're just not a competitive faction at any point level in the games I've played.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:12 pm Reply with quote

This was a great one to give a listen! I personally quite enjoy DJC. I am of course somewhat partial to the Cursed, but also like the overall aesthetic and art of the cards and ships.
I do very strongly disagree with the general sentiment that the fantasy elements "killed" the game, or even otherwise contributed to its demise. I would be very interested in hearing a more detailed account of why you think that.

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godmason
Thanks! As much as I really want the Cursed to be a better faction, I don't actually see a reason why they (or any other minor faction for that matter, more on that later) should have existed at all. They could have been incorporated under the pirate faction, and they have little that makes them unique.


While I can understand a general dislike of the minor factions, in that you wouldn't want to play as them... I 100% fail to see why you would ever NOT want them to exist, they make up something like what, 1/6 of the ships in the game? That's a lot to take out, furthermore if you removed them you would remove some of the most interesting pieces in the game... they add a tremendous variety to the game. Honestly if the minor factions weren't in the game, I would get very tired of playing. I really fail to see how incorporating them into other factions would do anything beneficial, nor do I see any way that removing them would've made the game better.

Plus, thematically adding the Cursed to the Pirates makes no sense. It would also give the Pirates an even bigger advantage over every other faction...
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:25 pm Reply with quote

cursedfan99 wrote:
I do very strongly disagree with the general sentiment that the fantasy elements "killed" the game, or even otherwise contributed to its demise. I would be very interested in hearing a more detailed account of why you think that.


A chunk of the player base ran away from the game when DJC was introduced. Perhaps the quality control issues had something to do with it too, but the game was remarkably historical up until this point. (I know about Fantasma and such, but pre-DJC the focus was mostly historical). Also, DJC was the beginning of the "reverse power creep" where sets got worse and worse for gameplay as they were released. Sea creatures were part of that, but overall DJC was still "the beginning of the end" regardless of how well it sold individually. It gave Wizkids the idea that MORE and MORE fantasy stuff would do well, and that's what gave us stuff like sharks and scorpions (shudder). I have no idea about the game's demographics, but I would suspect (and this is partly from experience with the surveys and on this forum) that the player base trended somewhat older in the early days, with people who liked the historical side of things. A lot of them were understandably turned off by the "turn to the dark side" (literally) that started with DJC. Sure the newer stuff brought in some kids, but it doesn't help when the older generation are the players with an overwhelming percentage of the money spent on packs.

Ironically enough, even I left the game (for a while) after DJC came out. I believe this was more to do with a growing baseball obsession, but DJC was still the last set I bought until coming back from hiatus in 2010/11. Even as a kid I was unhappy to see Cursed and sea creatures in the game, and it may be less of a coincidence than I realize that I stopped buying stuff until much later.

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Plus, thematically adding the Cursed to the Pirates makes no sense. It would also give the Pirates an even bigger advantage over every other faction...


As far as the Big 6 is concerned, it makes a bit of sense. The Cursed are more similar to the Pirates than any other faction, and I used a "Cursed Pirates" alliance in some of my early huge games. It wasn't to make the Pirates more powerful, but to let the Cursed have a chance at winning when they never would have been able to on their own. The Cursed are better as a single faction of course.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:57 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
cursedfan99 wrote:
I do very strongly disagree with the general sentiment that the fantasy elements "killed" the game, or even otherwise contributed to its demise. I would be very interested in hearing a more detailed account of why you think that.


A chunk of the player base ran away from the game when DJC was introduced. Perhaps the quality control issues had something to do with it too, but the game was remarkably historical up until this point. (I know about Fantasma and such, but pre-DJC the focus was mostly historical). Also, DJC was the beginning of the "reverse power creep" where sets got worse and worse for gameplay as they were released. Sea creatures were part of that, but overall DJC was still "the beginning of the end" regardless of how well it sold individually. It gave Wizkids the idea that MORE and MORE fantasy stuff would do well, and that's what gave us stuff like sharks and scorpions (shudder). I have no idea about the game's demographics, but I would suspect (and this is partly from experience with the surveys and on this forum) that the player base trended somewhat older in the early days, with people who liked the historical side of things. A lot of them were understandably turned off by the "turn to the dark side" (literally) that started with DJC. Sure the newer stuff brought in some kids, but it doesn't help when the older generation are the players with an overwhelming percentage of the money spent on packs.

Ironically enough, even I left the game (for a while) after DJC came out. I believe this was more to do with a growing baseball obsession, but DJC was still the last set I bought until coming back from hiatus in 2010/11. Even as a kid I was unhappy to see Cursed and sea creatures in the game, and it may be less of a coincidence than I realize that I stopped buying stuff until much later.

Quote:
Plus, thematically adding the Cursed to the Pirates makes no sense. It would also give the Pirates an even bigger advantage over every other faction...


As far as the Big 6 is concerned, it makes a bit of sense. The Cursed are more similar to the Pirates than any other faction, and I used a "Cursed Pirates" alliance in some of my early huge games. It wasn't to make the Pirates more powerful, but to let the Cursed have a chance at winning when they never would have been able to on their own. The Cursed are better as a single faction of course.


My issue with this, is that without having any demographic information from Wizkids sales/marketing department at the time, that statement is simply conjecture. And while I admire the fact that you can clearly associate the demographics that have been (and are, in some cases) present on this forum, you also have to realize that it is wildly unrealistic to use this forum as a gauge for the entire fan base that existed. There are a lot of ways to interpret the demographic on this forum, but as far as I can tell the most realistic and reasonable way to do that is to realize that 8-14 year old kids who collected or played the game weren't looking for or even aware of any internet existence of the game. Older collectors/players/diehards would of course gravitate towards here. But that is a minority.
The biggest hole, is that if the fantasy stuff weren't popular, or hadn't sold well, they wouldn't have kept doing it.

My point is this: The argument that fantasy elements contributed to the demise of the game is very difficult to make.
And proposing that the opinions of 200 outliers can represent the entire fan-base is an unrealistic thing do, in the terms of this discussion. Particularly when you're trying to transplant those opinions 10 years into the past.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:25 pm Reply with quote

cursedfan99 wrote:
My point is this: The argument that fantasy elements contributed to the demise of the game is very difficult to make.
And proposing that the opinions of 200 outliers can represent the entire fan-base is an unrealistic thing do, in the terms of this discussion. Particularly when you're trying to transplant those opinions 10 years into the past.


I'm not just talking about MT, I'm talking about the other sites too. Part of the reason for the reverse power creep (which led to less fun gameplay and more unfairness in fleet building) was the fantasy stuff, which in the normal rules is almost always inferior to the "regular" and more historical stuff.

You make some good points though, and I can't help but hypothesize when I was one of the people "back in the day" who didn't like the new direction the game was taking. And how a lot of people agree that post-DJC (sometimes including DJC) was considerably worse than pre-DJC. I don't think the recession gets enough credit for the demise of the game, and it could easily be the biggest reason of all. (and the least surprising in my opinion)

http://m.miniaturetrading.com/im/forum/viewtopic/t=4805///

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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:01 pm Reply with quote

cursedfan99 wrote:
While I can understand a general dislike of the minor factions, in that you wouldn't want to play as them... I 100% fail to see why you would ever NOT want them to exist, they make up something like what, 1/6 of the ships in the game? That's a lot to take out, furthermore if you removed them you would remove some of the most interesting pieces in the game... they add a tremendous variety to the game. Honestly if the minor factions weren't in the game, I would get very tired of playing. I really fail to see how incorporating them into other factions would do anything beneficial, nor do I see any way that removing them would've made the game better.

Plus, thematically adding the Cursed to the Pirates makes no sense. It would also give the Pirates an even bigger advantage over every other faction...
I'm not suggesting that the content should have never been implemented. I'm saying that everything that was added as part of cameo factions should have been under a different flag. Frankly, with how bad much of MI and FN are, I don't think it would have helped the pirates all that much. Plenty of it could have been given to other factions, too, instead of just padding the pirates further. In addition, the pirates' offerings could have been reduced in a bunch of other sets, to keep things even.
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cursedfan99

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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:30 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
cursedfan99 wrote:
My point is this: The argument that fantasy elements contributed to the demise of the game is very difficult to make.
And proposing that the opinions of 200 outliers can represent the entire fan-base is an unrealistic thing do, in the terms of this discussion. Particularly when you're trying to transplant those opinions 10 years into the past.


I'm not just talking about MT, I'm talking about the other sites too. Part of the reason for the reverse power creep (which led to less fun gameplay and more unfairness in fleet building) was the fantasy stuff, which in the normal rules is almost always inferior to the "regular" and more historical stuff.

You make some good points though, and I can't help but hypothesize when I was one of the people "back in the day" who didn't like the new direction the game was taking. And how a lot of people agree that post-DJC (sometimes including DJC) was considerably worse than pre-DJC. I don't think the recession gets enough credit for the demise of the game, and it could easily be the biggest reason of all. (and the least surprising in my opinion)

http://m.miniaturetrading.com/im/forum/viewtopic/t=4805///



I still think that without any demographics information/sales info it's really hard to make that argument! I do respect the fact that you didn't care for the fantasy elements as much, that is perfectly understandable honestly. It took me a very long time to even start to enjoy Scorpions or Switchblades, because like you said, they're just generally inferior. I just don't agree with projecting that opinion on to the entire fan base/using it as the scapegoat for why the game ended.

I also think there are a lot of issues with the Reverse Power Creep thing, and part of that is the games biggest strength/weakness. Which would be the ability to play cross-sets. I.E. you can mix your DJC, BC, and OE pieces perfectly well, and it works great. But it also provides balancing challenges. I've found that if you look at each set individually they tend to be well balanced. For example, Revolution is well balanced against itself, but absurdly powerful compared to virtually every other set.

And I would wholeheartedly agree that the recession would be a serious reason for the game being discontinued. Probably the most likely and obvious reason, at that.
As a side note, DJC is only marginally below average in that graph... and it only has 65 responses.
I guess, in the end it's all just opinions in the wind, though... Lol Very Happy

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godmason
I'm not suggesting that the content should have never been implemented. I'm saying that everything that was added as part of cameo factions should have been under a different flag. Frankly, with how bad much of MI and FN are, I don't think it would have helped the pirates all that much. Plenty of it could have been given to other factions, too, instead of just padding the pirates further. In addition, the pirates' offerings could have been reduced in a bunch of other sets, to keep things even.


I disagree with that, but understand what you mean.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:42 am Reply with quote

cursedfan99 wrote:
I just don't agree with projecting that opinion on to the entire fan base/using it as the scapegoat for why the game ended.


Part of the reason for that is because it's not just my opinion, but the opinion of many others as well. If everyone praised the creatures and Pokeships all the time I would have nothing to say about it.

Quote:
As a side note, DJC is only marginally below average in that graph... and it only has 65 responses.


65 responses (and now 87, see updated graph below) is pretty good for the remaining community, and I post about the surveys almost anywhere I can think of for Pirates CSG. My point is that DJC isn't the problem itself, but what it started. DJC was essentially the beginning of the reverse power creep. DJC was the beginning of many of the crazier supernatural elements that did annoy at least some percentage (even if it likely wasn't a majority) of the fan/player base. It wasn't so much DJC itself, which is still a good set overall, but it's what came after and what it led to that was the problem. Hence, why I will describe DJC as the beginning of the long slow decline.

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Subject:    PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:01 am Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:

*snip*
Part of the reason for that is because it's not just my opinion, but the opinion of many others as well. If everyone praised the creatures and Pokeships all the time I would have nothing to say about it.
*Snip*
65 responses (and now 87, see updated graph below) is pretty good for the remaining community, and I post about the surveys almost anywhere I can think of for Pirates CSG.
*snip*


I would absolutely agree! The very clear consensus on this forum and the rest of the online Pirates community is generally negative towards creatures, switchblades, etc. and it is 100% accurate to say so! I wouldn't even attempt to deny that, I have read a very large amount of the information on this site and can gather that! So it is obviously quite fair to say "Nobody here likes fantasy elements" because that is very generally accurate.
I'm just saying, it isn't reasonable to project that as the opinion of individuals whom you cannot or have not asked.
I would also agree that 87 responses is quite an accomplishment, for the remaining community, like you said. That's actually really cool!


But, like I said... it's an interesting discussion to try and argue either difection, but I suppose at the end of the day it isn't particularly relevant.
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