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Apparently, American ships automatically costed 1 point more
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a7xfanben
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Subject: Apparently, American ships automatically costed 1 point more   PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:31 pm Reply with quote

Finally listened to this old podcast and former MT member djwesterdale said what the thread title says (originally from an inside source of some kind). It's towards the end of the podcast if you want to catch that bit. Woelf, colringbk and piranha all get mentioned as well. Smile It's mostly about the SOE online version though, which makes parts of it confusing if you're not prepared.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:20 am Reply with quote

Technically, American ships cost what they're supposed to.


The original four nations got slight discounts on certain stats.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:28 am Reply with quote

That was an interesting listen. One thing I found particularly curious, however, was the reasoning offered behind the American ships' point allotments. While I'm sure there are collectors/players out there who try to get all of a particular fashion, it's seemed to me (more so lately, as some of my friends have gotten into playing and I've noticed it) that a player is more inclined to try collecting things for fleets based of their first pack pulls.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:38 am Reply with quote

repkosai wrote:
That was an interesting listen. One thing I found particularly curious, however, was the reasoning offered behind the American ships' point allotments. While I'm sure there are collectors/players out there who try to get all of a particular fashion, it's seemed to me (more so lately, as some of my friends have gotten into playing and I've noticed it) that a player is more inclined to try collecting things for fleets based of their first pack pulls.


That is sometimes the case, but there ARE plenty of American players out there. Not a bad idea when you think about the main market and demographics for the game. Although, I think it would have been a little better to have less American ships overall, since the US Navy didn't get really huge and powerful until after the Age of Sail ended.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:58 am Reply with quote

I downloaded this podcast to listen while I'm at work today! Extremely interested in the author's commentary on the American faction, as that is the faction I play.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:38 am Reply with quote

It was very interesting to hear how different the online game worked than the table top version. If I heard correctly they said like 5-6 actions per ship was possible! That is insane! Also the timing out factor adds an interesting twist to the strategy.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:51 pm Reply with quote

vixenishcoder66 wrote:
It was very interesting to hear how different the online game worked than the table top version. If I heard correctly they said like 5-6 actions per ship was possible! That is insane! Also the timing out factor adds an interesting twist to the strategy.


Yeah, it probably had to do with how the online version worked and also because the two action limit wasn't officially in the rulebook until SS (the last set). I'm just a bit jealous of their timing and having 30+ people for big 100 point tournaments! Surprised

Unfortunately this one seemed to be the last podcast of this type, but you can go to RedDragon's profile to hear some other ones, which I want to do eventually. I found djwesterdale's online presence and he was one of the many SOE players who left MT and Pirates CSG in general once the online version was shut down in early 2011 (just a few months before I joined here, darn! lol). I'm hoping we can keep building up the VASSAL player base to a consistent and decent number of active players.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:26 pm Reply with quote

Hmm, I might have to give it a listen since I'm an American player. Though with having just moved, it might be awhile...

Sounds stupid that the original nations got a discount other ones didn't, but at least America has more space for their expensive crew
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:42 am Reply with quote

Quote:
Sounds stupid that the original nations got a discount other ones didn't, but at least America has more space for their expensive crew


I agree. I call BS on Wizkids feeling the need to curb "jingoism" by hampering the American faction on the point scale. There is no need to insert a political viewpoint into the game. However, in a twist of irony, it seems the Americans had the last laugh when production was cancelled. The efficient treasure hunting combo of the Frontier , Native Canoes , & Cargo Master is superb!
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Subject: Interesting debate   PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:23 am Reply with quote

crsluggo wrote:
Quote:
Sounds stupid that the original nations got a discount other ones didn't, but at least America has more space for their expensive crew


I agree. I call BS on Wizkids feeling the need to curb "jingoism" by hampering the American faction on the point scale. There is no need to insert a political viewpoint into the game. However, in a twist of irony, it seems the Americans had the last laugh when production was cancelled. The efficient treasure hunting combo of the Frontier , Native Canoes , & Cargo Master is superb!


Confused I don't see it as a political viewpoint... I see it as understanding your primary target market (sure, some sets were printed in other languages, but I imagine the vast majority of sales during production came in the USA), and realizing that the US Navy dominating an Age of Sail game called Pirates that is arguably supposed to be set in an era (pre-1725 for the most part) when the USA didn't exist could lead to player disillusionment, confusion, and like they mentioned in the podcast, a dominant American faction with players preferring them above everyone else.

Even when the Americans are the 5th-best faction in the game, we see a ton of American players. That's great, and I'm pro-USA all the way, but the historical context still matters. The Pirates get a pass as a faction since the game is based on them, but the other 3 of the Big 4 (England, France, Spain) compared to the US (in the Age of Sail) is like comparing a full grown Siberian tiger to a newborn baby. This isn't the game where the US Navy should dominate, unlike the plethora of WWI/WWII/etc based games.

It's not fair, but neither is history or life. I'm just grateful the Americans showed up as early as they did (3rd set) and got a ton of awesome ships, even enough to compete with the Big 4 on a large scale game level (as proved by my Economy Edition game and Xerecs' Century of Empires game).

@crsluggo: Not sure if you knew this already, but native canoes cannot have their cargo space increased.
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Subject: Re: Interesting debate   PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:51 am Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:


Confused I don't see it as a political viewpoint... I see it as understanding your primary target market (sure, some sets were printed in other languages, but I imagine the vast majority of sales during production came in the USA), and realizing that the US Navy dominating an Age of Sail game called Pirates that is arguably supposed to be set in an era (pre-1725 for the most part) when the USA didn't exist could lead to player disillusionment, confusion, and like they mentioned in the podcast, a dominant American faction with players preferring them above everyone else.

Even when the Americans are the 5th-best faction in the game, we see a ton of American players. That's great, and I'm pro-USA all the way, but the historical context still matters. The Pirates get a pass as a faction since the game is based on them, but the other 3 of the Big 4 (England, France, Spain) compared to the US (in the Age of Sail) is like comparing a full grown Siberian tiger to a newborn baby. This isn't the game where the US Navy should dominate, unlike the plethora of WWI/WWII/etc based games.

It's not fair, but neither is history or life. I'm just grateful the Americans showed up as early as they did (3rd set) and got a ton of awesome ships, even enough to compete with the Big 4 on a large scale game level (as proved by my Economy Edition game and Xerecs' Century of Empires game).

@crsluggo: Not sure if you knew this already, but native canoes cannot have their cargo space increased.


I feel like it's unfair seems frustrating. It's like with mercenary pieces, though to a smaller degree. You don't want a faction of pieces taken out of gameplay because they're nerfed too hard. If someone chooses to focus on America because their first big pull was American, they just saw the Constitution in person, the immovable object/unstoppable force balance against your brother's HMS Endeavor (me) appeals to you, it is frustrating from a gameplay perspective for them to be at a disadvantage. Life and history are unfair, but I think a designed game doesn't has to be. Luckily America is still reasonably viable, and I still see a benefit in all this.

I think the jingoist idea is interesting if there was actual concern for American players wanting to play the faction thanks to America's love of patriotism. I guess it could make sense, but I was never in a case to see it.

I was disappointed by the lack of discussion, admittedly I was expecting more after I listened to it, so I wonder if something else was at play. I think nerfing a nation to keep the game historically accurate stinks, just don't introduce the nation if you are afraid it will taint your game. But I still think America has this crew focus on expensive crew that protect the others, where the nation really does benefit from the extra point of potential crew. If that's the case, and it was a pro/con situation that happened to push America out of smaller matches, then I think that is a pretty reasonable case.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:41 pm Reply with quote

notalwaysyou wrote:
I feel like it's unfair seems frustrating. It's like with mercenary pieces, though to a smaller degree. You don't want a faction of pieces taken out of gameplay because they're nerfed too hard.


I don't disagree, but it's to a MUCH smaller degree than the Mercs. The Mercs are essentially unplayable at any point level, while the Americans have the potential to dominate especially in larger games.

Quote:
If someone chooses to focus on America because their first big pull was American, they just saw the Constitution in person, the immovable object/unstoppable force balance against your brother's HMS Endeavor (me) appeals to you, it is frustrating from a gameplay perspective for them to be at a disadvantage. Life and history are unfair, but I think a designed game doesn't has to be. Luckily America is still reasonably viable, and I still see a benefit in all this.


One other thing I thought of if the game was MORE historically accurate: the English would be even better, especially in combat. With the dominance of the Royal Navy, especially post-1750, you could argue the English should be even better, since the other factions in the Big 4 can usually stand with them in battles. (Not that this would be a good thing of course!) Along with that, the Pirates wouldn't have ships larger than 3 or 4 masts and they would have to have less firepower and more Fear-type abilities.

Quote:
I was disappointed by the lack of discussion, admittedly I was expecting more after I listened to it, so I wonder if something else was at play.


Yeah, djwesterdale had to go to bed (and he was the one who brought it up) and the show's live version ended at the one hour mark, so the hosts were going to wrap things up soon afterwards regardless.

Quote:
I think nerfing a nation to keep the game historically accurate stinks, just don't introduce the nation if you are afraid it will taint your game. But I still think America has this crew focus on expensive crew that protect the others, where the nation really does benefit from the extra point of potential crew. If that's the case, and it was a pro/con situation that happened to push America out of smaller matches, then I think that is a pretty reasonable case.


Thank you for focusing on the positive here.

In the interests of keeping the debate/discussion going, I don't see a ton of point in complaining about your favorite faction getting "shafted". Maybe you picked the wrong faction. Smile At least if you want to win a lot.

The English have been my favorite since the beginning, and although I acknowledge their lack of great gold running options, I don't think I've complained about it. I'm stoked to use what they have! As proven by my huge games, it works pretty darn good believe it or not. The fact that the English nearly won both recent CG's (on VASSAL) against superior competition illustrates that you can make things work in spite of the odds. On that note, you can set up a really amazing gold system with the Frontier, Providence , Rattlesnake , and multiple copies of Native Canoes and maybe a cargo master. Even on a much smaller point level, get this and maybe figure out a way to include the native canoes and/or Hidden Cove, and you'll definitely be winning some games. Smile
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:53 am Reply with quote

crsluggo wrote:
Quote:
Sounds stupid that the original nations got a discount other ones didn't, but at least America has more space for their expensive crew

I agree. I call BS on Wizkids feeling the need to curb "jingoism" by hampering the American faction on the point scale. There is no need to insert a political viewpoint into the game.
I think this is reading way too far into it.

Honestly, it's much more likely to be one of two things (or a combination):

1) When they expanded beyond the original four nations, they were too lazy to update the formula to account for the new ones.

2) The original designers weren't directly involved with design beyond the first four nations, and the people that took over from them didn't look at the formula and were completely unaware of modifiers until it was too late to go back and correct them.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:02 am Reply with quote

Fair points guys! I willing to admit I probably read too much into a throwaway comment on a very old podcast....
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:07 am Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
you can set up a really amazing gold system with the Frontier, Providence , Rattlesnake , and multiple copies of Native Canoes and maybe a cargo master. Even on a much smaller point level, get this and maybe figure out a way to include the native canoes and/or Hidden Cove, and you'll definitely be winning some games. Smile


Some great ideas for me to explore! Quick question: Native Canoes don't run up against the no duplicates rule?
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