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Rules for thought #9

 
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a7xfanben
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Subject: Rules for thought #9   PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:22 am Reply with quote

Now that the Rules survey has some results, I think it would be a good idea to discuss some various options in detail.

Can't remember if this was from someone else and/or myself, but just a general idea:

Winner of boarding party can steal all gold regardless? (make boarding better/more historical)

In essence, Hoarding Gold would become the default if the winner of a boarding party wanted to take gold. I know that's pretty extreme, but boarding is often a risky and ineffective strategy, while it could be extremely effective and decisive in real life, both in fleet actions between navies and in ship-to-ship combat involving pirates. I'm not hugely in favor of such a drastic change, but it would make it more of a "piratey" game I think. It could also result in a lot of exciting swings in the gold score throughout a game.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:34 pm Reply with quote

Making that the default would make ships and crew with that ability obsolete and redundant. I'm not in favor of doing that, but I am in favor of changing it a bit. Perhaps instead of all the gold or coins, maybe up to two gold/coins can be taken.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:23 pm Reply with quote

xerecs wrote:
Making that the default would make ships and crew with that ability obsolete and redundant. I'm not in favor of doing that, but I am in favor of changing it a bit. Perhaps instead of all the gold or coins, maybe up to two gold/coins can be taken.


Indeed; if this ever happened Hoard would get replaced by something else. Not sure what, but the Massacre ability is arguably the most similar, or even better (arguably). Or perhaps a new ability that makes thematic sense.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:41 pm Reply with quote

This is a good area of research, I agree with both of you guys : that would be great to find a kinda happy medium taking into account the historical aspect and all the rules that could concern the cards so it is more historical but it also respects some cards' abilities.

Besides, it's a little bit strange for example when you win a boarding party to not be able to take as much gold as your victorious ship can. I draw a parallel between that and the other rule which says that when you sink a ship, each player gets a certain amount of golds which was in that ship cargo. I don't really like this rule but this is another debate. Anyway, what do you think about the possibility to take as much golds as you can according to your ship cargo space ? But maybe it was what a7xfanben implied ? Because I'm sure no one here would be inclined to take all the golds from the defeated ship, no matter is the cargo space and to put them directly on HI.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:56 pm Reply with quote

vetrarbreytin wrote:
This is a good area of research, I agree with both of you guys : that would be great to find a kinda happy medium taking into account the historical aspect and all the rules that could concern the cards so it is more historical but it also respects some cards' abilities.

Besides, it's a little bit strange for example when you win a boarding party to not be able to take as much gold as your victorious ship can. I draw a parallel between that and the other rule which says that when you sink a ship, each player gets a certain amount of golds which was in that ship cargo. I don't really like this rule but this is another debate.


I don't like playing by that rule either, the gold should sink and stay sunk. If you want it you can always explore a derelict or repeatedly board to take it.

Quote:
Anyway, what do you think about the possibility to take as much golds as you can according to your ship cargo space ? But maybe it was what a7xfanben implied ?


Yeah, that's what the original post is about.

Quote:
Because I'm sure no one here would be inclined to take all the golds from the defeated ship, no matter is the cargo space and to put them directly on HI.


Some people do like that rule and play with it, but perhaps just because it's been the standard in 2 player games since 2004.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:52 pm Reply with quote

xerecs wrote:
Making that the default would make ships and crew with that ability obsolete and redundant. I'm not in favor of doing that, but I am in favor of changing it a bit. Perhaps instead of all the gold or coins, maybe up to two gold/coins can be taken.


At this point though, if the rule was changed, it would be through a relaunch and I would be fine with leaving some legacy pieces behind. Boarding never felt as profitable as just exploring islands. Maybe because the risks felt so high. (Why do i want to spend 5+ points on a crew with a boarding ability if I might end up losing them on one bad roll). Too powerful, and you minimise the gold ships on the board, and someone has to get gold off the islands.

A ship like the Gruesome always seemed much more cost effective for stealing. Or at least ships with built-in boarding abilities (if they were large enough)
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Subject: Re: Rules for thought #9   PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:15 pm Reply with quote

a7xfanben wrote:
Now that the Rules survey has some results, I think it would be a good idea to discuss some various options in detail.

Can't remember if this was from someone else and/or myself, but just a general idea:

Winner of boarding party can steal all gold regardless? (make boarding better/more historical)

In essence, Hoarding Gold would become the default if the winner of a boarding party wanted to take gold. I know that's pretty extreme, but boarding is often a risky and ineffective strategy, while it could be extremely effective and decisive in real life, both in fleet actions between navies and in ship-to-ship combat involving pirates. I'm not hugely in favor of such a drastic change, but it would make it more of a "piratey" game I think. It could also result in a lot of exciting swings in the gold score throughout a game.
Boarding is one of the most abstracted things in the entire game, so any changes to it beyond what specific abilities already do would require major rewrites.

The rule where the loser chooses what they lose to the boarding has always felt like it was purely a game balance decision, not based on any sort of realism, and it makes some sense. If the winner of the boarding could always grab/kill the best thing on the other ship, it offsets the balance between them much more quickly. There's a bit of a cinematic angle to it as well, where most of the nameless mooks would get killed off before anyone actually important would be in any danger.

As far as stealing gold goes, unless it's a decisive battle where the losing ship gets captured and the winners have as much time as they need to loot the ship, the winners are going to retreat back to their ship after the battle. Any treasure they get will be whatever they managed to grab on the way out, so taking only low-value stuff makes some sense. The bigger and more valuable items take more time and effort to carry away, and may not be options at all.



Instead of modifying boarding to let the winner steal a bit more, the whole system should be revamped. Instead of a quick die roll comparison, make it a whole means to an end and treat it more like competing, simultaneous shoot actions. Both players get to roll with various bonuses and penalties based on their ships and crew, with both potentially suffering losses along the way. When it's finally done both players usually return to their own ships to lick their wounds, but if the right conditions were met the winner outright captures the opposing ship. Generic crew could remain, but most named crew would get killed or thrown into the brig.
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Subject: Re: Rules for thought #9   PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:56 pm Reply with quote

woelf wrote:
Instead of a quick die roll comparison, make it a whole means to an end and treat it more like competing, simultaneous shoot actions. Both players get to roll with various bonuses and penalties based on their ships and crew, with both potentially suffering losses along the way. When it's finally done both players usually return to their own ships to lick their wounds, but if the right conditions were met the winner outright captures the opposing ship. Generic crew could remain, but most named crew would get killed or thrown into the brig.


Interesting, that reminds me of Merchants and Marauders a little bit. I have been interested in making some boarding bonuses for historical crew that involve capturing without towing, as that happened quite a bit.
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:03 pm Reply with quote

woelf wrote:
Boarding is one of the most abstracted things in the entire game, so any changes to it beyond what specific abilities already do would require major rewrites.


... and yet it is probably the option we use the less because of all its inconveniences which is quite surprising and unfortunate for ... well a pirate game. Rolling Eyes
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:07 pm Reply with quote

vetrarbreytin wrote:
woelf wrote:
Boarding is one of the most abstracted things in the entire game, so any changes to it beyond what specific abilities already do would require major rewrites.


... and yet it is probably the option we use the less because of all its inconveniences which is quite surprising and unfortunate for ... well a pirate game. Rolling Eyes


Exactly. Thematically you'd think it would be much more important, and a more effective strategy. Also, since a rewrite involves a lot of work and potentially changing other things, I think simple cost reductions could work. Make Hoard 2-3 points instead of 5, Filching Gold 1 point, etc.
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