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deimosdx

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Subject: Wadayothink about this house rules   PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:28 pm Reply with quote

I gave a quick look at the rules (PoDJC), and the game seems more slugish than i remember. Having played a lot of Infinity, and couple other dynamic games like Dystopian Wars and Firestorm Armada, some core rules about this one weirds me, like ships not able to move and shot, what kind of sorcery would prevent a ship from shoting on the move! Evil or Very Mad

So i need your opinion on a couple ones i can think of to make the game a bit more dynamic and less one sided to who plays the active turn.

- Simultaneous Fire : If you fire at a ship, after rolling all cannons, target ship may roll all cannons within legal range and LOS before taking damage. This will resemble real life ship battles were you HAVE to exchange shots if you lack range adventage.

- Broadside Firing ark: Ruleset says you can shoot as long as your own mast dont block LOS. Instead, 90º fire arc to the side feels about right. Maybe some specific ships like Flying Dutchman can shot forward.

- Move and shoot: Any ship may move and shot without the need of a captain. Not sure if i should give two actions per turn instead with some restrictions, like no move + repair.

- Captain: Allow to resolve damage before target ship fires back.

- Emergency repairs: Ships may try to repair at wild islands rolling 4+ on 1d6. Not as a free action ofc, but lets say if you can repair at home, you should be able on an island full of resources.


What do you think? Could this work? Am i breaking the game? Do you have any other ideas? The craziest the better.


Last edited by deimosdx on Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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el_cazador
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:33 pm Reply with quote

I think simultaneous fire has been discussed, but I'd like to see it tried in an actual game. The broadside arc seems fair; maybe a few ships like junks and/or longships could have an exception. I don't know about your new move + shoot and captain; that captain would have to be more expensive to balance properly. I'm not sure what I think about your emergency repairs.
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deimosdx

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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:03 pm Reply with quote

We tried them on a couple 2v2 ship deathmatchs and so far so good. Ill report back when i have the chance to play a full 40p game with gold, terrain, etc.

Im trying to play with inertia as well, that is: you must move S at least, with the posibility to fully stop at the end of the movement using a marker (anchor).

Oh and sorry if im posting in the wrong place, seems to be a post for a lot of things but didnt find one for custom rules.
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a7xfanben
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Subject:    PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:52 pm Reply with quote

The Thread of Threads will have some things that might interest you.

Notably: New Pirates CSG Concepts for a New Age

The concept of return fire is an interesting one, and what you've done with the captain keyword is intriguing as well. In the future, a version of return fire may be included in The World Game.
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deimosdx

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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:13 pm Reply with quote

Thanks! I like some ideas there, like hull hp depending on ship mast count, or even fliping coins to check hit location, tho this last rule would make it way too crunchy.


We got a dilema btw. As i understand, game ends immediately when all enemy ships are derelict or sunk. But it doesn't make sense to prevent the winner from snatching all remaining gold on wild islands for free.

And here is the problem, without this rule, games can easily turn into a deathmatch, but with it, becomes a nonsense, decimating enemy fleet and keeping last ship alive on purpose so gold doenst evaporate Shocked

Ideas? Rolling Eyes
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marhawkman

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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:57 pm Reply with quote

well, some places I've been we played it that the last man standing automatically gets the unclaimed gold on wild islands.

But I think the rule is there to create a sort of balance between gunships and runners. That said, you DO get gold for sinking a ship that carries gold.
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a7xfanben
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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:30 pm Reply with quote

I've played it both ways. I generally prefer that the winner does not automatically receive all the remaining gold - it disincentivizes having a balanced fleet and it goes against the way the game is meant to be played. However, especially in recent times I've found that the person who wins when one player is eliminated usually had more gold anyway, so giving them the rest just artificially increases the margin of victory.
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deimosdx

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Subject:    PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:56 pm Reply with quote

Getting gold from sinking a goldrunner just makes it worse for the "no deathmatch centric game". Theres a lot of resources on the forum tho, im diving atm looking custom rules and battle reports.

So far theres a couple fixes like free fort at home, double home islands, or making them way bigger and placing them towards the center of the board.

Maybe thats the problem, i played all games placing home island at the edges, about 4 ships each, 60 point fleets. Its so easy to build 4 ship with maxed accuracy, and L+S or even L+S+S movement, surround rival island, and decimate 80% of enemy fleet in one volley.


Another solution would be forcing a set number of gold runners. Or maybe we're just so bad at the game, we dont realize yet how to build a good gold fleet. Embarassed
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marhawkman

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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:43 am Reply with quote

Gold fleets must be fast, or stupid cheap, one of the two.

The rule I was thinking of is that sinking a ship carrying coinage causes the treasure to be split. If it can't be split evenly by coin value, the larger part goes to the attacker. Example: a ship with a 3 and 2... attacker gets the 3. If there's only one coin the attacker gets it. A 3, 1, 1, the attacker gets the 3 and defender gets the 1s.
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captain_vendari
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:20 pm Reply with quote

marhawkman wrote:
Gold fleets must be fast, or stupid cheap, one of the two.

The rule I was thinking of is that sinking a ship carrying coinage causes the treasure to be split. If it can't be split evenly by coin value, the larger part goes to the attacker. Example: a ship with a 3 and 2... attacker gets the 3. If there's only one coin the attacker gets it. A 3, 1, 1, the attacker gets the 3 and defender gets the 1s.


That's one way to split it. An alternative suggested by The Pirate Code is to replace a coin with two from outside the game to split the treasure as evenly as possible.

Of course, the "split treasure" rule goes out the window once you start playing multiplayer.
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deimosdx

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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:32 pm Reply with quote

Im trying to come up with rules/scenarios were you can spend coins somehow without having to go back to home island, making blockades improductive, without turning the game into monopoly.


For example: Hideout islands like tortuga: you can recruit crew and ships (i can make tables easily to randomize whats available). Cant be shot while docked.

Another rough idea just came to mind: no home islands. Two fleets arrive at an archipelago and battle to control it, deployment from oposite edges, forts can be built. Ships may leave the game (permanently) from their home edges, thats the gold that counts for victory.

Im aware im driving the game too far from its core rules. Just trying to enhance immersion as much as possible while staying away from crunchy stuff like shifting wind and simultaneous movement. Every link, idea, etc is welcome. Twisted Evil

Oh, and theres new rules for boarding on the way. Need to balance everything else first tho, this could break or slow down the game so easily. In exchange, a whole new dimension of strategy is possible Cool




Edit: Once i shape a balanced and tested ruleset i plan to drop a PDF with a simple core, and a section for modular stuff. Im nowhere near a game designer, but as long as someone find it useful... Smile
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xerecs
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:53 pm Reply with quote

I don't know if you've seen them but Century of Empires and Century of Economy are both modifications on the original rules, and modifications from player rulesets. Another thing to check out would be theWorld Game which is combining more elements and realism than any other pirates ruleset game ever. All of these go away from some of the core rules, but they're all campaign type games, where fleets are designed to get massively huge.

Some other places to look for stuff would be BGG and Pojo, though those two sites are not as active as this one. Hope that helps a little.
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a7xfanben
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Subject:    PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:12 pm Reply with quote

deimosdx wrote:
Im trying to come up with rules/scenarios were you can spend coins somehow without having to go back to home island, making blockades improductive, without turning the game into monopoly.


For example: Hideout islands like tortuga: you can recruit crew and ships (i can make tables easily to randomize whats available). Cant be shot while docked.

Another rough idea just came to mind: no home islands. Two fleets arrive at an archipelago and battle to control it, deployment from oposite edges, forts can be built. Ships may leave the game (permanently) from their home edges, thats the gold that counts for victory.

Im aware im driving the game too far from its core rules. Just trying to enhance immersion as much as possible while staying away from crunchy stuff like shifting wind and simultaneous movement. Every link, idea, etc is welcome. Twisted Evil

Oh, and theres new rules for boarding on the way. Need to balance everything else first tho, this could break or slow down the game so easily. In exchange, a whole new dimension of strategy is possible Cool

Edit: Once i shape a balanced and tested ruleset i plan to drop a PDF with a simple core, and a section for modular stuff. Im nowhere near a game designer, but as long as someone find it useful... Smile


Epic post. ^

I'm not sure what kind of time you have available, but check out Game Ideas. You'll find a TON of stuff there. I was going to mention the World game and its associated rulesets, but Xerecs beat me to it. Water World is a game similar to your no home island idea, and I've played variations of Water World where there aren't even forts in play - only gold on ships counts. Shocked

You may also find this interesting. Redesigning the Ramming & Boarding mechanics
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deimosdx

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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:23 am Reply with quote

Thanks! Did not read anything yet, im busy for a few days, but man, thats a lot of stuff Laughing
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lord_denton
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Subject:    PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:56 pm Reply with quote

There's lots of quality discussion going on here! I like it a lot.

I've got one idea that might help this discussion be even better.

I've noticed we do a lot of linking out to the wealth of resources on Pirates CSG. There IS a wealth of resources, and thanks to those familiar with those other threads for directing our attention to them. I think that's very helpful.

That said, we want to keep the discussion alive in this thread -- if we're lucky, maybe we could draw comments on both threads. If we only* link out to the other threads, some of which are megathreads, we might get a bit lost and overwhelmed by those megathreads. (Truly, those threads are treasure troves, but perhaps they're becoming too cumbersome for discussion...?) Reading about the old stuff is good. But it might distract us from the conversation that's going on right here and now - about the ideas in this thread's first post. (Though, the first post did ask everybody to post their ideas, too)

(*Not to say that extreme is the case in this thread )

It might help if there's something in particular from the megathread that you could include here, along with the link to the other thread. That would keep things relevant and give people the option to inspect the other thread, too!

This is just an idea to make this thread even better, that's all. Smile

I know this is not the first time we've discussed simultaneous fire. Smile In fact, I'm pretty sure I did a post about that before, and firing arcs too... Ah, the first page of the New Concepts for a New Age thread that A7xfanben posted:

lord_denton wrote:
Something that has always bothered me is the lack of return fire in this game. Sure, it's a bit messy, but speed and the first shot shouldn't be the most determining factor of an engagement, especially since ships fired simultaneously at each other. But it's important to mantain the balance between fighting and merchant/gold ship (when you think about it, many gold ships have passable rank 4 or even rank 3 cannons), small ships and big ships (little ships are disadvantaged to big ships - in almost all cases, bigger ships are extremely more viable than smaller ones since the smaller ones will need 3 or 5 points for a Captain + Helmsman combo), and between fighting ships. So, here's a fighting crew to make gunnery more even with speed:

Gunner (Generic Crew - 4 points)(Concept: Return Fire ability)
Once per turn, after an enemy ship has resolved shooting at this this ship, this ship may return fire with up to 3 cannons. These cannons get a -2 to their printed ranks. On your turn, they can be used again as normal.

This ability hopefully provides a viable option that isn't game-breaking, and also let's you apply any cannon bonuses that you paid so much for. The return fire will be made after the damage has been dealt, but it gives an added kick when you consider you'll be shooting on your own turn as well.

(Another thought is to have them shoot WHILE the enemy is shooting and before damage is dealt, but then NOT to have those cannons ready to fire on your own turn)


Hmm... Looking back, I do agree with the first part of my post. I'm not so sure if the crew ability I came up with is the best, or if it should be a crew ability at all. It'd be nice to have an option for merchant ships to fire back (like that crew I came up with) but maybe a separate option for fighting ships. 2 crews? A game mechanic watered down for merchant ships, and a dedicated Gunner crew for fighting ships? (The Gunner crew I had might be a bit underpowered)

Deimosdx, were you thinking of having simultaneous fire be a core game mechanic, or something that a crew does?

For simultaneous fire to work, I think something else would need to change, too. Perhaps a new damage system. Otherwise, two fighting ships are going to shred each other in less than one turn. Which might already be the case in the present game... Wink I think what we ultimately want is a more sophisticated, slightly more drawn-out combat system, no? We want gunships to trade BROADSIDES! Not one singular broadside. Amiright, or am I wrong?
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